Curse

Bankai · Dec 01, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Maybe people will now start running builds without monks. I like the idea, even though I love monking.

2 blinding surge with monk secondaries and spirit spammer anyone?

yesitsrob · Dec 01, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Not really seen this build much but how exactly does it do so well vs a dual aegis chain (which about everyone runs) - Blinding Surge (which sees a lot of play) - do they use anthem of guidance? warriors cunning? anything like that?

well whatever, im glad it happened >_>... such a shitty paragon-dominated metagame is probably coming to an end. And team with some srs crap players might not get away with it anymore by simply having a paragon to make up for their screw ups. Maybe.. :\

tomcruisejr · Dec 01, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Not really seen this build much but how exactly does it do so well vs a dual aegis chain (which about everyone runs) - Blinding Surge (which sees a lot of play) - do they use anthem of guidance? warriors cunning? anything like that?

\

"Fear Me!" insta recharges when using Steady Stance > Drunken/Desperation Blow, even the warrior is blind, has missed its attack, got evaded or blocked.

munk127 · Dec 01, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeldawind

like i already said earlier in the thread teams whit good positioning can beat it easier then average guilds whit not as good positioning really. But it also kinda depends on your counters to warrior hate and how good the monks are whit focus swapping for hiding nrg

.
But like already said this meta allows this build to exist. Although whit the paragorn nerf the meta should change really whit more warrior hate maybe to fit in wards. That will help to reduce the effectivness aswell. kiting through ward against foes ftw

Monks balling up in wards vs fear me ftl? If they can get off a fear me after one steady stance + drunken blow then kiting in wards won't be an issue. They could easily hit someone else with the combo once and use fear me in the wards.

Lord Mendes · Dec 01, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

you know Syra I would have expected you to be a bit more excited over this.

Tortoise · Dec 01, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

IWAY is successful at the moment because a lot of the teams at the top have no idea how to deal with pressure. All the teams with crappy monks that broke to IWAY-style pressure were able to spike or split their way to the top because of Energizing Finale. Now that Energizing Finale has been destroyed, heavy pressure builds are going to crush a lot of the high-ranked teams.

It won't be long before capable teams make their way back up and the C+spacing teams start losing matches again. I imagine a well-played IWAY could continue to hold a spot though, if it was modded to allow for effective splitting.

Any kind of pressure was crap ever since paragons made their entrance. The fact that this build can roll over obviously overpowered paragons, aegis chains and three monk builds in less then 4 minutes should ring a bell. It's not just random nubs getting crushed by the build... Just yesterday PnH lost in about 5 minutes against a team consisting of 4 pick-ups. I'm pretty sure they'll squeeze out a win the next time they fight it but the fact is still there.

Similarly: I fail to see how the new Iway is even remotely as skillfull as the Eurospike. If any of the two builds are c-spacing it's gonna be the Iway, and definitly not the eurospike.

This isn't some silly fight between Finale vs Iway. Finale was overpowered, it's now gone and I'm happier. But the new Iway is just as imbalanced.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 01, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Whenever a new crazy pressure build comes out, a lot of the top teams usually lose to it. Te lost to Thumpway and Triple Smite, but were able to beat them later on once they'd learned the strengths and weaknesses of the build.

By definition, pressure gimmicks usually require some kind of specific plan to beat. People tried to split 4-4 on triple smite at first and got rolled, so they switched to smaller splits and gank teams that don't give up the flagstand defense and they were able to deal with it much more easily. When Thumpway first came out, teams lost to it the first few times, then started beating it subsequently. These builds are typically pretty inflexible, so once you know the tactics that work against them they start to lose a lot of games.

It won't be long before the top teams know how to beat the new IWAY. The ones that are capable of standing up to pressure will stay high-ranked. The ones that just piggybacked with the retarded power of Energizing Finale will see their rating drop like a stone.

tomcruisejr · Dec 01, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Similarly: I fail to see how the new Iway is even remotely as skillfull as the Eurospike. If any of the two builds are c-spacing it's gonna be the Iway, and definitly not the eurospike.

Where's the skill in a build wherein if the caller error7s, everyone resigns?

(Whatever) Spike is like 1 man heroway - the win is dependent on how good 1 person is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

you know Syra I would have expected you to be a bit more excited over this.

orly? :P

Lord Mendes · Dec 01, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

orly? :P

ya rly
I always had the impression that you enjoyed messing with people that scream "overpowered, lame, unfair!", especially regarding IWAY.
Quite frankly, im dissapointed, I way expecting some rather witty remarks.

tomcruisejr · Dec 01, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

ya rly
I always had the impression that you enjoyed messing with people that scream "overpowered, lame, unfair!", especially regarding IWAY.
Quite frankly, im dissapointed, I way expecting some rather witty remarks.

Me(1): My Witty Remark bar is 3 out of 67!
Me(1): needs.. recharging...

well, i love to mess up with people who are overreacting. but i dont think people who are "overreacting" from this build are indeed overreacting. this new variant is imo more powerful than the old gvg iway build, which was axed coz everybody thought that twas overpowered.

old gvg iway build was all out pure adrenal damage supplemented by dual orders and got a backline to protect. this one got dmg (@ 16 tactics, the 2 d blows does +30 something plus dmg each and you can spam it like forever as long as you dont mess up with the steady stance - dblow pattern), conditions again via the d blows (crippled! deepwound! weakness! bleeding! all applied by the 4-3 warriors, omg?), a superb e-denial which overrides warrior hate stances, skills, conditions and paragons which are like "warriors who can heal".

but it's good to have it back. watching spikes and other builds for 12+ minutes is a waste of time.

Lord Mendes · Dec 01, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Me(1): My Witty Remark bar is 3 out of 67!
Me(1): needs.. recharging...

bipping...
fear me spam is draining you I guess.

killer_sss · Dec 02, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

i guess im failing to see how IWAY fits into this are these guys bringing pets too? or how r they getting their speed? if so y not just ignore pets and kill wars? nehow when i first saw this steady stance skill i thought hmm that might put those 2 worthless skills to some use.

Lord Mendes · Dec 02, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Pets die, you IWAY, and there is your Increased attack speed. If you mean actual speed (sprint, rush) that can be accomplished very well with a combination of godspeed (while under orders) and retreat (on corpse of dead pet).
Does that answer your question "How do they get speed?"?

tomcruisejr · Dec 02, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Pets die, you IWAY, and there is your Increased attack speed. If you mean actual speed (sprint, rush) that can be accomplished very well with a combination of godspeed (while under orders) and retreat (on corpse of dead pet).
Does that answer your question "How do they get speed?"?

or "Charge!" on 1 warrior for movement buff.

killer_sss · Dec 02, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Pets die, you IWAY, and there is your Increased attack speed. If you mean actual speed (sprint, rush) that can be accomplished very well with a combination of godspeed (while under orders) and retreat (on corpse of dead pet).
Does that answer your question "How do they get speed?"?

couldnt u just avoid killing there pets then?

Thomas.knbk · Dec 02, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer_sss

couldnt u just avoid killing there pets then?

You forgot to take the skill level of the average HA player into account

Lord Mendes · Dec 02, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

pets = extra DPS
many people build adren, kill them for corpses, lots of shit.
Also most teams run a Searing Flames ele and/or a dervish which both do AoE damage. Pets will die.
And yes Syra, Charge is there, I completely fergot about that

I will be sure to check with you next time I say somethign about IWAY

@ thomas,
the average HA players generally don't touch the pets. It's generally the more experienced ones that know how and why, and the absolute newbies.

romO · Dec 02, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I don't know how powerful this is, really. We haven't had any problem against it. Just fight it the same way that you would IWAY. Have everyone attack one of the warriors that is overextended and training your monks. Have the monk just kite around your damage characters. Kill the warrior. Do the same thing to the next warrior. Kill it. Switch back to the first warrior. During this, have your HP guy stay out of the range of QZ and do nothing but spam HP. After a while, their damage will just be too DPed to stay alive and do anything and in due time, the hard res will be able to be killed as well. It relieves the pressure and with no healing, training a target is almost always a free kill, especially on a warrior.

And in that game that you saw against the IWAY, we didn't have a monk error 7. We actually just brought one monk.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 03, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

@ thomas,
the average HA players generally don't touch the pets. It's generally the more experienced ones that know how and why, and the absolute newbies.

Hm, if you say so....
Last time I played iway it was the other way around, or so it seemed. Experienced players went straight for the orders (it was before iway took trappers), and newbs/noobs instantly killed the pets that we send in with our longbows.
But that was a long time ago, back in '94

Lord Mendes · Dec 03, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Hm, if you say so....
Last time I played iway it was the other way around, or so it seemed. Experienced players went straight for the orders (it was before iway took trappers), and newbs/noobs instantly killed the pets that we send in with our longbows.
But that was a long time ago, back in '94

There are situations where killing a pet can be useful, and there are situations where it isn't. An extra corpse, building and keeping adrenaline, ect. Also nobody suddenly kills all the pets,and you can tempt some (bad) IWAY warriors to use I will avenge you by killing two pets, and then they only have the shout for 20 secs and you laugh for the remaining 25.
Any decent IWAY kept the orders way back, and having a bunch of people pushing into IWAY's "backline" is not uber ideal because they can easily push hard into your monks/ward and/or send some1 back to pick off the overextenders with traps and other warriors.
Also some simple math will show that if you have any party protection from melee (Ward Melee, Aegis) warriors do more DPS with their pets alive. IWAY warriors should be in a Tiger's Fury as much as possible until they can IWAY. Now when it comes to the 6 pips of health regen, if your build relies on degening the warriors to death, then of course you shouldnt kill the pets, but if it is some sort of build that only kills through spikes, then that is no longer an issue.

EDIT: grammar and spelling. Also would like to point out that this is an 8v8 HA point of view.